A Conversation with Len Sweet,

Chad Hall

Len Sweet is the best-selling author of SoulTsunami, AquaChurch, SoulSalsa, and Faith Quakes. Recently, Len and I ate bagels, drank coffee, and talked about the church's interaction with culture. He shared with me some insights about how today's churches can be effective in remaining faithful to God as they impact the world for Jesus. Below are some paraphrased excerpts from the meeting. I hope you find them useful.

CH: What's one of the big issues facing churches today as they seek to be innovative?

LS: I'd say that one of the main things is the lack of focus on education. Too many churches think that innovation happens only in worship, and so they become very worship focus, while ignoring education. The truth is that every church should be a seminary that educates you to the ministry God has called you to do. A church should be more like a school with a curriculum - an innovative curriculum designed to take people deep into the heart of what it means to be a follower of Jesus. I mean, we have "Bible-believing churches" who don't read the Bible. There's something not right about that.

CH: What's the pastor's (church leader's) role in today's church?

LS: His or her main job is to give away the ministry. The pastor needs to remain spiritually fresh, alive, and in tune with the Holy Spirit in order to create a spiritual force that impacts the rest of the congregation. The pastor needs "to be" so that others "can do" ministry. One of the issues facing many innovative churches is that they really aren't very innovative. They are still stuck in the "assembly line" mode of thinking. For a lot of our churches, "contemporary" is just another program that can be mass produced. Rather than copy what others are doing successfully, we need to allow each success to be celebrated in the here and now. After all, God is calling us to a whole different ministry. Our tendency is copy those who get results, but the truth is that Jesus is the one who actually gets results. So, we should go, study Rick Warren, and do otherwise. We should go, study Jesus, and do likewise. To put it simply, church leadership is an art, not a science.

CH: Many NC churches are attempting to transition from traditional to contemporary worship and are facing challenges in doing so. What advice would you give them in this struggle?

LS: Well, if anything, they need to make the 11:00 service more traditional, not less. I don't think leadership should alienate the people who don't want change. Those people have a right to access God just as much as the ones who favor change. The key is to begin a new work alongside the traditional one. In fact, every pastor should see himself as a church planter. This shouldn't be just another clone, but a mission church. Think about the tough time that church planters have - little money, support, and encouragement. Pastors of established churches should plant a new church using the resources and salary that the traditional church provides. The new church is a mission to the natives, while the traditional church exists for the immigrants.

CH: Tell me what you mean my "immigrant" and "native?"

LS: Well, anyone born before 1962 is now an immigrant because they were born into a world that no longer exists. They haven't boarded a ship for a new land, but the landscape around them has been so transformed that they are now living in a world different from the one into which they were born. The natives are the ones who grew up in the postmodern culture - they speak its language, understand the customs, and blend right in. The problem is that most of our churches are still ministering to the immigrant minority and not the native majority. We've got to figure out how to minister to the natives.

CH: What are some of the keys to ministering to the natives?

LS: Experience. Plain and simple, we've got to turn our focus from telling people about Jesus and turn our attention to helping people experience Jesus. The modern (immigrant) way of knowing Jesus is by means of proposition. But the postmodern (native) way of knowing Jesus is by relationship. Natives want relationship, lots of touching, feeling, and stories. The way to evangelize in the postmodern world is not by testimony or by dictating 4 spiritual laws or something like that. Rather, it's through story. That is, listening to the other person's story. In fact, the Christian will be reluctant to share too much of his or her own story for fear of cross-definition. You don't want the new believer to think that their story has to mirror or imitate your story of faith. The evangelist in the postmodern culture will listen to the unchurched person's story and then help them put God into their story. God's already there, they just haven't yet recognized Him. Jesus is working in their life, they just haven't realized that it's Him. Another aspect of this is that postmodern people are wired in such a way that they can try the faith as a way of exploring its truth for their lives. They can become a minister as a means of becoming a disciple. But churches have to encourage people to come to Christ, not come to the church. People want and need to experience the person of Jesus and what He is doing in their lives.

CH: How will this emphasis on experience translate to worship experiences?

LS: The postmodern will not sit and be an audience. Immigrants might want to attend, but natives want to be in the game. For example: my son goes to a baseball game and sits in the stands with his glove. When a homerun is hit into the stands, and he catches the ball, he can't understand why the batter isn't out. He doesn't just want to watch the game, he wants to be an important part of the game. Innovative worship leaders will find ways to move worshipers from being spectators to being participants.

September 25, 2000 Chad Hall, Baptist State Convention of NC.