An Interview with Michael Slaughter

John Chandler

The following is an interview conducted by John Chandler with Michael Slaughter, pastor of Ginghamsburg Church in Tipp City, Ohio. The interview was conducted on July 7, 2000 by John Chandler of the Virginia Baptist Convention.

Chandler: Can you tell me a little bit about the Ginghamsburg story, and in particular about some of the vision you brought to this church when you came?
Slaughter: Ginghamsburg was like the typical little Methodist church. It was founded in 1863, really a by-product of the second Great Awakening, where the Methodists and Baptists spread all around the country and were essentially centered in the layperson--the Baptists in the layfarmer and the Methodist the layleader, the circuit rider. The circuit riders established this church, preaching in this area in 1863, and there were 14 conversions. Those 14 conversions committed to form a class, a small group, a cell group, for mutual encouragement. By the 1870's they decided that if they were really going to be faithful to the Great Commission, to be the Body of Christ and to reach out to the world, then they needed to raise money and build a little church. So, the church I came to, the little two room country church- had outhouses eight years before I came. I came in 1979 and moved into the little two room country church building down the road. It was built in 1876 and did not have indoor plumbing until eight years before I came--just two outhouses in the back. I was the first full-time pastor that came to serve. Until the 1920s, it had been on a four-point circuit, and that circuit rider would preach, be part-time. And from the 1920's it was always served by a student from United Seminary, right here in Dayton, Ohio. So, when I came in 1979, I was the first full-time pastor. We had an annual budget of $27,000, 90 people, and I, in my 27 year-old naivete, I was determined that I didn't have time to play church, but that my life had to be given to true Kingdom work. That's winning the lost and setting the oppressed free. I believed that everyone who named the name of Jesus was a minister. I was not going to be a chaplain, to come and serve and take care of the church. I was going to equip the church for the sake of ministry. That's all I knew. I had been in Campus Crusade for Christ in college and the whole idea was the multiplication of cycles. I came out of a kind of a very "First Church of Frigidare" United Methodist upbringing where I didn't have any kind of relationship with Jesus. But I had a really transforming experience at the University of Cinncinnati as a college student. At CCC, I discovered that we were here to make disciples. That became my ministry paradigm. So our church quickly grew from 90 to 60. And I think that anyone who understands the revolutionary movement of Christianity knows that you've got to get smaller before you get bigger. I think that's a constant. In the 21 years I've been at Ginghamsburg, we're constantly losing people. Every week, I get a "Dear Pastor Pigface" letter. It's that "we don't like the music" or "we know you're doing this for the young people, but who do you think pays the bills?" and "we just think that what you're doing is out of the pit of hell. In Jesus' Love, "_____." It's painful. My wife, at my son's baseball game last night, said to me, "Did you know that so-and-so is leaving? Man, this subtle, constant leaving is painful through all these years." Because there's this sense that the servant of God believes that we experience God in community but there is a complete loneliness that comes from both knowing the power of resurrection and the fellowship of suffering. And if Jesus was rejected, well, there's always a part of that. It creates a God-dependence all along. But the church in 1979 had 90 people. In 1994, when we moved to this campus, we had about 1,200 people in worship per weekend. Now we have, including children who are not in adult worship celebrations, about 3,800 people a weekend.

Chandler: So, even though the church grew from 90 to 60, something happened between 1979 and 1994 where other folk got on board with the same Kingdom vision that you brought?
Slaughter: Well, its like I said- you get bigger by getting smaller. When I came to this church, I knew I couldn't minister to 90 people. Ninety was a bigger church than I could handle. That's why 70% of the churches are under 100 in attendance: because one pastor can give institutional care--hospital visits, home visits, sacramental care, communion or baptism, weddings, funerals. So, one pastor cannot give institutional care for more than 90 people. But they can help empower 90 people to be a demonstration of koinonia, the radical, unconditional love of God. You know, you can organize people for a Disney boycott … but you cannot demonstrate the relentless-refusal-to-let-go-of-the-love-of-God to the world. We're not going to change the world through boycotts. That's what Methodists do constantly. It's easy to become issue centered. That is why the apostle Paul said "I chose to know nothing while I was among you but Christ Jesus and him crucified." So that's me here, you know, I'm not going to be Republican or Democrat. People say, "Mike, preach on homosexuality this weekend." Nope- "I choose to know nothing while I was among you but Jesus Christ in Christ crucified." And, so, 90 is too many, so I began to look. In the first three months while I was preaching, I begin to look for people whose hearts were strangely warmed. And I began to talk about the radical nature of being a follower of Jesus and God's intentions for the community of Christ, preaching out of the book of Acts. What is this community supposed to be, what does it mean to be the hands and feet of Jesus in the world, what does it mean to have a missionary mindset versus a consumer/customer? Because, man, our members get confused on that- they think they are the consumer/customer versus the missionary. So, you can spot those people out in the congregation who are getting it and hearing the voice of God. You see them taking notes. So I went to about nine or ten people and I said, "Carolyn and I are going to start a group in our home on Wednesday nights." This was going to be revolutionary because the godfathers and mothers of this church didn't want the church to be changed.

Chandler: Were they the ones who left in going from 90 to 60?
Slaughter: Some of them left, some of them died, some of them went to the old folks home, some of them are still here.

Chandler: How have they held on? How have you all co-existed?
Slaughter: Well, some of them get it! Yes, some of them, not everyone. Age is not chronological, it's a matter of spirit. There are some 80 year old people that are singing a new song. And there are some 20 year old people who are dried up, dead. Youth is the thing, eternity of the spirit. What I did was to begin to meet with these people in my home while the godfathers and mothers wanted to continue to control the church and play church games- Christmas and missionary bazaars, chicken noodle dinners, and all that kind of stuff. What I did was teach this group of nine or ten people. We began to read like Dietrich Bonhoffer's book The Cost of Discipleship, George Hunter's book at the time The Contagious Congregation. We asked, "What does it mean to be the revolutionary community of Jesus in our community and in the world? What does it mean if we, just this handful of ten people here, decided to live this thing sincerely and get involved with the poor in our community and really begin to be the hands of Jesus? So, ten of us began to practice being the hands and feet of Jesus, and out of those ten, and as pastor- I needed to finance this revolution, so of those ten I was discipling, I made one of them chair of the finance committee. I didn't try to change the old chair. Too many of us were waiting for the chair to change. For resurrection to happen, death has to happen- either spiritually or physically. And I needed to stay in the church so I made another one of them chair of the staff-parish committee. They became my Joshua's and Deborah's, the leaders of the revolution. Some of them are now staff in this church. So what I did was create a new church within the old church and let the old people keep their little club. Instead of trying to change the old, I created a new event. So I have continued to focus on the pure DNA of the spirit of God with a few people to keep that intensity. And as I continue to focus, fanning that to a fever, bringing it up to the boiling point in a few people, they infect others,who infect others… so that's what I'm continuing, "man I'm ruined for Jesus."

Chandler: And it's a self-replicating structure…
Slaughter: If you get into saying, "We're trying to build a church, it's going to be nothing but ashes. Don't go off and replicate Ginghamsburg Church. Coming here, I want this to be an icon, or a mirror, for you to look closely again at the vision God's already placed in you and you go be faithful to the vision God has placed in you. But what you see here is- you've got to risk to do it, you've got to follow the way of the cross. We're going to be crucified every week of our life if we're going where Jesus is going. So this has been painful.

Chandler: When did you come closest to falling during your leadership?
Slaughter: It's the times I wanted to quit, which happens. You know, you just feel beat up. When you're a little church, you just keep meeting so much resistance. It's hard on your family. Unlike some fields, I was making $12,000 a year. Other men and women my age, at that time, were making $30,000 a year in comparable professional fields with masters' degrees. In the early years especially, there's the temptation to be good so you can go to the bigger church.

Chandler: Climb the ladder.
Slaughter: Yeah, so I can go to "First Church". Of 40,000 United Methodist churches in the country, and this is in the top ten in size. I never went to First Church. I'm still at the little Ginghamsburg you saw down the road. That's the miracle of loaves and fishes. "Ladder" is not a metaphor for the Kingdom of God. "Cross" is a metaphor for the Kingdom of God. And the greatest you come to falling is when you feel like quitting. You're tired, the money's not there. I'm not a fundraiser, I didn't give my life to this to be a fundraiser. We're running real tight financially right now. Some more people are leaving when we need them. We're attempting some more radical things- we've just built a 36,000 square foot teen club. All these unchurched kids are coming for half-pipes and skateboarding, and bringing good Christian rock groups in, and coffeehouse, and gamerooms, and gymnasium-- it's huge. So, I've got some old people walking out, asking, "How are you going to pay the bills?" All I want to do is preach the Gospel. You know, I'm not a businessperson. I'm in Ginghamsburg, Ohio, sixteen miles north of Dayton, which is only 180,000 in population. I'm three miles from Tipp City, there's only 6,000 people that live in Tipp City. Everywhere I look, I'm surrounded by farm fields. I don't know how I got here, except, "yes, Jesus." And to say to people around me, I'm not quitting, follow me. And that what makes leaders is that we are the first to the front. David was a kid, but he was the leader. Saul has the position…

Chandler: But David was the leader.
Slaughter: David was the first to the front. David was, in his youthfulness and everything else, willing to put his behind on the line. First to the front, first to see the need, and willing to commit everything he was and is to the success of the mission.

Chandler: So, that's your role as pastor- to be first to the front, on the edge. And if you're on the growing edge of being teachable by the Holy Spirit every week and willing to take risks with the church, then God will provide.
Slaughter: In a typical Southern Baptist pastor's office right now, you and I can picture the suit and tie. The hair part and everything else. The 30 pounds excess weight. We've got the picture of the typical Southern Baptist pastor right now. Is it Saul or David? Is it Saul, up on the hill, that understands the fact that the giant that we have to confront, of postmodern paganism, is taunting us to turn to every other spiritual format. And we don't know what we should do for fear. And we have the position of leadership. But David, the leader, probably fit all of the Baptist qualifications. But David says, "I'll deliver." And it's that leader who is not fearful, who trusts God enough, "even though they slay me, I'll put my trust in God." And, brother, I'd rather die trying, I'd rather be the pastor of 200 folks who are revolutionary followers of Jesus than the CEO of a lukewarm organization. So I'm going to be in people's space every week. What is the product of the revolutionary follower? It's not a big church. It's not attendance. You know, what are the measurements? We start talking about measurements- I've got 3,000 people coming to this thing. That's not the measurement. The measurements- I read about Peter: "With your faith, there's goodness. With goodness, mutual affection. With mutual affection, love." Those are the measurements I see there.

Chandler: Not attendance or buildings or cash.
Slaughter: No, with this you will provide yourself to be fruitful for God's purposes in the world.

Chandler: So, what are the things you would say to a pastor or lay leader frustrated because their church seems stuck? Change what you measure?
Slaughter: Oh, yeah. Its not whether people are pleased with us or happy with us or anything else. But, are we really the hands and feet of Jesus? Are we winning the lost and setting the oppressed free? Everything comes down to that. There are churches out there who make up 90 people, who are revolutionary and in revolutionary ways are impacting their communities. And there's other churches of this size, who may say, "Mike, you should have stayed small, then you were not quite an embarrassment. You didn't do anything else but put my name on what the country club up the street was doing. There's sexism, racism, everything else. You know, your people reflected a Republican ideology, or Democratic ideology, a conservative ideology, or liberal, rather than the Bible.

Chandler: Talk a little bit about your twenty one-year tenure here. Your leadership has, obviously, evolved. What kinds of things have you had to let go of along the way? What have you picked up in their place?
Slaughter: Well, you have to know what your sweet spot is. I don't know if you play sports, but while watching my son last night, he hit two home runs. You know when he hits the sweet spot. Sometimes he just doesn't quite get it off the park. He said to me one time- I said, "that was a great hit"- he said, "I didn't quite get it." Even if it goes out, he'll say "I didn't get it." Just the way it feels. If you play tennis- if you hit the sweet spot- you can hit it off the sweet spot and it still goes over the net- it's not the same. In your life as a pastor, if you know your giftedness and call, this is your sweet spot. If you live out of that sweet spot, you're going to be energized and blessed. People around you are going to be energized and blessed. If you live outside of your sweet spot, you may be able to get it across the net…

Chandler: Can you name a few things that are out of your sweet spot?
Slaughter: Counseling. I was trained in social work so when I did counseling, I was good. Because I would read Conjoint Family Therapy, reality therapy, and Carl Rogers. I'd look over things before people came in, and afterwards, I'd take notes and everything. I did it better probably than average pastors. But it de-energized me. Now, we have the counseling center down on our south campus. We have seven degreed, licensed, mastered counseling folk, who do much better than I did. So I don't do any counseling. When I did weddings, which everyone has to do, it de-energized me. I do them well but I put so much into it- the counseling. God hates divorce, I hate divorce, I feel responsible when I say, "by the authority granted to me by God, I pronounce you man and wife." (I never say state of Ohio because I'm not appointed by the state of Ohio!) Wore me out. My sweet spot is what I'm doing now, teaching, proclaiming the Kingdom. So, instead of doing weddings Saturday and proclaiming Sundays, I want to do proclamation both days. So, we have licensed lay people in the church who do the weddings and stuff. I can't because I'm preaching. What life would I have if Friday nights, instead of being at my son's football games, I'd be at a wedding rehearsal? So I'm a teacher. I'm a teacher-leader-evangelist.

Chandler: That's what picks up your pulse.
Slaughter: My twenty-second elevator version of my mission statement is "to connect people to their God-destiny." So, I do that with everyone I'm with. When I'm doing that, I'm in my sweet spot. When I was in a board meeting yesterday morning at 6:45, talking about a financial situation and fundraising, it de-energized me. I hate fundraising, I hate administration. I am a spiritual leader, I'm not a CEO. I am a spiritual leader and I know that and I'm going to operate out of that sweet spot. I want those other people that have administrative gifts, those pastoral gifts- I don't have pastoral gifts, I have prophetic gifts. My laypeople say my spiritual gift is the gift of irritation. (laughter) Slaughter: Even with you. You Baptists … papers pick up on stuff. Instead of, "Baptists come together, committed to serve hungry people" or "Baptists come together to serve homeless people," or "Baptists come together and this week built two Habitat for Humanity Homes", we see "Baptists come together and say, "Women take your role in the back seat." And "Baptists come together and say, "Disney" …"

Chandler: Help the pastor who feels the sweet spot is teaching, leading, preaching, planning, evangelizing but is burdened with other expectations.
Slaughter: I wrote about it in my first book, Spiritual Entrepeneurs. The sixth chapter is called, "Leadership is the Difference." I compare Moses as a visionary leader and Aaron as the traditional pastor/manager. Because people who go into ministry tend to be co-dependent in many ways, what Aaron does (since he doesn't have a clear vision from God) is he becomes a group facilitator, a board-committee person. "Well, what do you all want to do?" He wants to do what you want to do. He does not speak as a clear leader with vision and anointing and authority from God, who says, "this is why we're here, this is what we're going to do, this is how we're going to do it." First to the front. Because, if you put out the vote, people are always going to vote to go back to the way it has been. Always. Because that's all they know.

Chandler: Better vegetables back in Egypt.
Slaughter: That's all they know. So what they do is from their past tradition, the values they bring out of Egypt. So as a pastor, the most important thing you can do is get in touch with the vision that God has placed on you. Why am I here? What am I supposed to do? I even write about how I went out behind that little country church in April of 1979 and said, "God, I'm not leaving here without a vision of what this is supposed to be - and stayed there all day and began to picture a vision. Then I quite frankly said to the people, I'm 27 years old, I'm almost dead, life is a bore. So, you have to trust and believe this is going to work; give it a year. I taped some meat wrapping paper up on the boards. I said, "here are some gifts: preaching, teaching, visitation, leadership, involvement in community organizations, anything, weddings." Okay, list- prioritize. I gave them each a sheet of paper and said, "write these twelve things down and prioritize- this is important for a staff person. So Dwight, what do you have? You've got- number one is visits. Okay, Dennis, what do you have? Number one- preach. The first thing I did was show that nine people didn't agree. Then I said, "here are my gifts. I'm a prophetic teacher, leader, evangelist. I'm going to focus on these and you all have gifts. I'm going to have you operate under your anointing because when you do that, you do that better. Some of you may have the gift of healing and you need to be the ones to go to nursing homes. So, we began to do gifts-based ministry. We began to exercise gifts-based ministry, versus professional position ministry. It's about empowering the laity to do that.

Chandler: So, pastors and congregations must understand that the person who holds the office of pastor is not necessarily called by God to be "the pastor," but rather the one who teaches and empowers the pastors in the church to do the pastoral work using the gifts. Then the church is set free to do ministry and people are able to function by gifts, instead of by title or position.
Slaughter: Right.

Chandler: Well, as a closing statement, what coaching would you do to help congregational leaders learn on your nickel, learn from a mistake that you made?
Slaughter: There are a lot of mistakes that I've made. One is I didn't put my family before the church. One of the mistakes that we have made as leaders in the church is that we can very much reflect the way the world does think and operate out of driven-ness and make that your meaning. We do the same thing as a church. So people don't see the reality of how the Kingdom of God makes us different, liberates us. From 1992 to today, my covenant to my wife and family became my priority. I remember one day my son, who was pretty young, had a microphone on the seat next to him, and he picked it up and was kind of playing with it. But I could hear him and on the speakers there was static, so I asked my wife, "would you take that away from him? I'm preaching." And he got really upset, started crying, went out." So, I said, "Hey, you guys, you'll have to excuse me, I've got to go out." So I went outside, sat on the curb, talked to my son.

Chandler: In the middle of worship?
Slaughter: In the middle of my sermon! I'm out there on the curb, I'm like, "buddy, I shouldn't have embarrassed you in front of people like that with that mic deal." He's kind of a sensitive kid, especially when he was younger. I had a crowd of people in there, but my son, I'm not ready to drop. And today, he's obedient to Jesus. What I'm seeing is that this kind of investment has made a difference.

Chandler: A Kingdom difference.
Slaughter: A Kingdom difference. This kid will go to the University of Pennsylvania and know who he is and whose he is. He may have some some struggles but he's got a grasp of Jesus.

Chandler: Your leadership lesson would be for key church leaders to demonstrate and model the Kingdom within their families?
Slaughter: Yes. What am I most proud of? My family. Look around at my pictures in this office. I've got a letter over there from Katzenberger (?) about working on The Prince of Egypt, but that's not what I'm most proud of. It's those pictures of my family. It's that Jesus redeemed my marriage. That's what I'm most proud of.

Michael Slaughter serves as pastor of Ginghamsburg Church in Tipp City, Ohio, and author of several books on leadership.
John Chandler serves as Director of Evangelism and Church Growth for the Virginia Baptist Mission Board.
Copy right John P. Chandler, 2000

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